Gerda Boyesen and Christa Muths meet for an open discussion
(This open discussion took place 25th February 1997 in London.)

CM: How do you deal with people who come to you for treatment on the energetic level but in whom you detect a muscle armour?

GB: Very often people with strong muscle armour do not even sense that they are not in contact with their body. There is no contact between Body and Spirit, they do not feel very alive and are searching for something. Whereas people with slight muscle tension are often in much more pain when the muscle armour dissolves, and repressed feelings come up and repressed feelings will cause pain, if they have not been worked through and the mechanisms of emotional digestion are not functioning anymore. I discovered these emotional digestion mechanisms and we call them psycho peristalsis.
Those people with a strong muscle armour do need psychoperistalsis, i.e. the energetic nervous fluid that emerges, when suppressed emotions surface, that is the emotional digestion mechanism. When the suppressed emotions come up to the surface you should not work deep into the muscles and thus activate even more suppressed material; in this situation we work with the muscle membranes and other methods with the stethoscope as feed back. You try to make the muscles healthy again. The neurotic and biochemichal products that are being released cause pain but it will disappear when the psychoperistalsis starts, that is very important.And in people with mild muscle tension you can do a lot of work with the aura. Because the energy of the emotions has not been integrated, expressed and digested. These emotions sit in the muscles and cause pain. Often this nervous energy goes into the aura. Therefore it is better to start the therapy with work on the aura, with stethoscope feed back avoiding to
provoke more suppressed emotions.

CM: You mentioned the state of 'being split off', in my experience these people do not feel the pain in every day life.

GB: No, not in every day life, it is as if the muscles have become insensitive and stiff.

CM: And when they become more alive because of your energy therapy, i.e. the suppressed issues come out into the open; is that process like a melting in the muscles?

GB: Yes, it is a cleansing process. And this cleansing process is directed towards finding your true personality and creativity and spontaneity; instead of the stiff and neurotic. This means a transition from the neurotic secondary personality towards the non-neurotic primary personality. We are born and this process developing neuroses starts, also in the body. In therapy we pursue a different path.

CM: You work with the muscles. In my therapy I work mainly with the organs, less with muscles. What are your views on the kind of information that is held in the organs, or how does it differ from the information in the muscles?

GB: I should add that you do not have to have pain in this type of therapy because we have developed methods to provoke and take away the unconscious material, to produce and eliminate. If you know what you are doing and use the psychoperistalsis with stethoscope feed back you can work in a manner that is not painful. Often it used to be said in psychotherapy that you have to feel the pain, but I do not agree with that.
But back to the organs. - In our work we do not think of the organs so much, we work primarily with the muscles and the breathing, with the unconscious and the conscious, and with psychotherapy. Automatically that has an impact on the organs. At the same time it is a cleansing process for the organs. But you do have to be cautious with the kidneys to avoid overloading them with toxins. For example if a client was provoked too much, the treatment was too strong, he should drink a lot and use homeopathic remedies etc. so that the kidneys are not put under too great a strain. Or the client may need vitamin supplements if there is too much stress on the heart. In these cases you should use other forms of therapy to complement, e.g. with radionics you can measure whether the organs are under too great a strain. And then there is the tissue armour where chemical products can be stored, e.g. residues from drugs or surgery. Everything depends on the regulation of the therapy, you have to know what you are doing.

CM: How would you describe the organ armour, similar to the muscle armour or do you perceive it to be energetically different?

GB: The kind of questions you ask does make me curious, what methods do you use?

CM: In my seminars or private consultations I provide a type of energy for the students/clients which enables them to look into their organs, to sense the organs and feel what kind of energy is predominantly present in them. This energy work also includes bones and muscles. And I ask e.g. for joy or fear, what the muscles and organs would enjoy and what they fear. Often it is very difficult for the students to sense this, first they have to learn to make contact with the organs and the awareness in them.How to do this is what you learn in my courses. And then I ask what feelings the organs hold, where is disappointment located, where frustration, and I let the students travel through their body, bit by bit, to see where the various feelings are located and which experiences of life are kept in which organ. And to stay with this energy, to get to know it, to really perceive and sense yourself, where the students come from. If an issue is resolved in the consciousness it is like something opens up from the inside, you probably know what I mean. The blocked energy is set free from inside. The specific organ will have much more space from within, this new awareness spreads to the muscles and other organs. But you cannot work in this way with people who have a very strong muscle armour.

GB: Yes, people with less severe muscle armour are far more sensitive. And then you can go on guided visualisations into their body with them, which we also use, and to go into the different organs and find what is located in them.

CM: Yes, but there is a difference between visualisation and meditation. I have students in my three year courses who go into their body with visualisation and think they are in contact with their heart. But I can see how close this contact is, i.e. how much they are at one with this feeling.
I can see in the energy whether this contact is just an illusion or real. Often when we repeat the exercise in the third year they say: 'Now we can really feel the heart energy, in the past it was just our imagination.' It takes a long time until they are able to be one with the organ or the feelings that are held in it. I am working on experiencing an holistic "I-am-consciousness".

GB: Yes, to be able to enter this kind of contact one should go into therapy. Some people are sufficiently open, but others need a long time. I will never forget when a psychiatrist who was in our courses said: 'There is something wrong with this patient, she can feel her heart. It was the same with me, I could not feel it. But the more I dissolved my armour the more I could feel my body. I will never forget the moment, I was sitting in the bath tub, and suddenly I sensed an energy coming from my uterus and going through my whole body. The energy flowed through my body, I could feel it, then it was electro-magnetic, like a massage. That was a very moving and intense moment for me.
So called 'primitive' people can even feel their ovulation because they are more in harmony with their body. People have to go through this process of sensitising their bodies. We do not just work with the muscles but with the whole body and also with psychotherapy. Going into the organs is especially important because you can see the blockages and strong reactions may occur. But it is true what you have just said, people with strong muscle armour cannot feel their body and therefore not their organs either.

CM: In my work experience, but of course experience is always subjective, I meet some people who are never ill. I know a lot of people who never even have a cold. That I always find highly suspicious, usually they are very straight and structured through and through, also physically. In my experience they die very suddenly. They seem healthy for many years but then suffer a sudden death, of a stroke or heart attack for example, without any prior warning. What are your views on this? Would you say these people keep the energy so tightly in their muscle armour until some day something just bursts?

GB: Yes, the energy is directed to the inside and will be stored in the inner organs. These people are not in contact with their natural self regulation mechanism. They just keep on functioning like a machine without feeling that it is too much. Others feel 'this is enough now' and a natural self regulation sets in. I do think that your observation is correct, absolutely.

CM: If new clients approach you for energy treatment but you think they cannot cope with this work, do you send them away or what else do you do?

GB: I do not send anyone away. I simply find new methods, I am a detective. You have to know which methods are suitable for which patients though. In the beginning major problems occurred with all these body-psycho-therapies in many countries because it was believed you had to 'break' the muscle armour. I call the different types of clients 'neurotic stone', 'neurotic warrior' and 'neurotic prince/princess on the pea', the latter are the energetically highly sensitive clients. You have very hard methods for the stones and also strong methods for the warriors, but the prince/princeess on the pea you have to treat as a prince/princess on the pea, otherwise you can provoke too much from the unconscious and also open too much of the body-psychological armouring. I have seen people who for years were kaputt because a therapist used stone or warrior treatment for an energetically very sensitive person. These clients break down and become more and more ill, for years. Here it is important to know how to work with these clients, with the aura and psychoperistalsis, but most of all with what we call energetic emptying; and with integration, with talking, cerebral integration. But it has to be a very mild treatment because it often touches on the unconscious, otherwise the reactions are far too strong for the patient.

CM: What are your views on the role oxygen plays in the body?

GB: The meaning of oxygen in the body and in the tissues in my work - here we come to what we call nervous energetic blockages. This means that the blood circulation does not actually reach these tissues and therefore neither does the oxygen. This can cause problems and there may be dysfunctions of the tissues. We use the term emptying of the blockage. We developed special techniques for this that do not affect the psychological defences. With these techniques we aim to move the nervous energetic fluid which can be blocked in various parts of the body and this has an effect on the whole body and nervous system. To describe it with a metaphor, it is like a sponge completely filled with old water so that no new water can enter. This has severe and damaging effects on the whole system, including physical symptoms.

CM: The experience in my work shows that if a client has several of these blockages his\her condition deteriorates exponentially, not linear. Suddenly it changes, like a quantum leap, suddenly they become ill in the whole of their body. But this does not happen gradually, in a linear way, for if a certain percentage of blockages where fluid accumulates in the tissues is reached, it will manifest over-proportionally in the whole body.

GB: My experience with my uterus has almost to do with hysterical phenomena. The energy came like a fluid. Energy draws fluid. But by doing this it has an effect on the whole vegetative nervous system and makes you really ill. You can become not just psychologically ill but also physically. All this is caused by this psychic blocked fluid. First there is the energetic blockage plus psychological suppression and too much stress etc., and the natural psychoperistalsis does not work on its own anymore therefore the blockages are not emptied. It is stuck, you develop local symptoms, pain here and there or serious general disorders.

CM: To come back to the role oxygen plays in the body. I do think that not everybody in the same room breathes in the same. Everybody absorbes the substances according to his\her psychological and physical condition and awareness. We only take from the room what resonates with us. Would you agree with that?

GB: Yes. Besides, negative energies come into it as well. The chakras can be too open. We loose energy, but we can also absobe negative energies if the chakras are not functioning properly. In this case you have to work with the chakras.And the ogygen distribution in the body as a whole, e.g. if a regressive suppression pattern is coming to the surface it can cause oxygen deficiency due to the blockage of energetic fluid. As a result the client may be very low on energy or become ill. There is a strong link between the energies, psychological development and body work.

CM: Do you assume that the fluid in the body has consciousness?

GB: You must be able to perceive very fine energety levels to be able to ask this question. It is nice to be able to speak to you about these matters - because usually I am quite hesitant as to with whom you can discuss these topics and with whom you cannot! Here we come to what I calll esoteric biodynamic psychotherapy and psychology. The question was whether fluid has consciousness or unconsciousness. I think everything is related to vibrations, and the fluid can have different vibrations. The higher the vibration the more of a heavenly or psychic connection. Blockages can prevent you from getting in to contact with your soul. I also think that a connection exists between the higher vibrations and the Higher Self and between the Higher Self and the Devine. There are many connections. The fluid can be positive or negative.
It is fantastic how you yourself can determine how you feel. It will be my 75th birthday this year. Last winter there was a period where I felt really old. Because I had broken my leg I still had to use a walking stick and then there was snow and ice. And then I understood - we have these vibrations in radionics as well - there was the energy of feeling old in me. This vibration was also in my fluid. You see, also feelings have their specific vibration. Then I thought that I am creating this vibration of old age myself as being a great grandmother I kept on saying: 'I would like to sit in my grandmother chair.' instead of 'I would like to sit in my chair.' My family also contributed to this by repeatedly saying: 'Be careful!' and I simply internalised that. In this way we create our own vibrations. Interestingly enough this is true for our femininity as well. You are also a symbol of womanhood, and that is beautiful. These days people are so crazy, everybody is meant to be so thin, but they are loosing their femininity with it.

CM: But there is still a lot of pressure on women. A friend of mine, he is a sculptor, looks at how alive the skin radiates and how a person moves. He says: "What is the use of an aesthetic body if it has a dead skin! This body is not alive!" He also says: "I want something alive and then it does not matter whether the age is 20 or 70, it does not make a difference." Not the age of a person is important to him but how much the person is alive within.

GB: This radiation! I can see in a client if the radiation is coming from the skin. In the works of the old masters you can see it, it comes through - the women have it. But if you have a strong armour it cannot get through.
It is wonderful in training groups, you see when it starts to come through! And also with clients, it is marvellous this alive radiation.

CM: Where do you think the memory is situated in humans?

GB: This is an important aspect. There are psychotherapeutic schools or psychologists who claim that the unconscious does not exist. But that is because they have not experienced it and they do not have the appropriate methods to uncover it, therefore their clients cannot access the unconscious.
I see myself as an expert who can help people with their unconscious, often in just a few minutes. Because I found in my many years of body work that the diaphragm is the 'gate to the unconscious'. We also suppress with our diaphragm, as we do with our muscles and our psychological mechanisms. And the diaphragm can be the first step for treatment by proceeding very cautiously. You can dissolve the neurotic breathing, but you have to proceed with great sensitivity, not hard because the harder you work the harder the defences become. The treatment is very mild. I am a psychotherapeutic temptress, I seduce the energies, but a temptress for the good of the client, not for myself, that is important.
About the memory I would like to explain the following. We have these three cavities: abdomen, chest and head. In the abdominal cavity there are the innards which is where the neuroses are located, actually they are in the innards and the vegetative system. If the energy is just in the abdominal area you cannot remember the traumata. When the energy rises into the chest area you worry about not being able to remember. But when it reaches the upper chest area you do not have to go very far to remembering. And I use a special technique. Here occurs what I call the dynamic moment and I have to use a special verbal technique for the clients to experience what I call cerebral integration, remembering. Many are crying or screaming, in this dynamic moment I have to use this technique so that they can remember. But you cannot use the technique if the energy is in the abdominal area only. It has be up in the chest, well on its way and then memories will come. Or you can use a verbal technique which I call positive regression. Once a gentleman came to me and said: 'I am 45 years of age now and when I was 40 I forgot everything. I do not dare to go ahead with this exercise.' But in the end he could remember back to when he was six years old. So you see there is a technique for this also. I love using and teaching this specific technique. And I think you can remember as far back as inside the womb.
Often you connect with your incarnation. To experience this is very exciting. It comes as a great surprise to the clients. So it is quite clear, you cannot say the unconscious does not exist! In addition I differentiate between sub-conscious and un-conscious. The subconscious is nearer to the surface whereas the unconscious is deeper down.

CM: My last question concerns the 'false memory syndrome', what are your views on this issue?

GB: Yes, I do think that whatever comes from the unconscious is not false, the body-unconscious is true - I do know that!! But if therapists work with questions and induce thoughts it can lead to false memory syndrome. In our practice, when a client starts to allow certain memories to come up and fear they may have been sexually abused as children, but do not want to think and believe it. Usually they say, 'I have these silly thoughts, I do not believe it.', then I know it is true. And then I have to open it, and the dynamic also, they have to live through the situation once more and then all doubts will be removed. But none of these people will start court proceedings against their parents, like in the States. Because we work with reconciliation, i.e. a deeper understanding and clients do not get stuck.
I do believe false memory syndrome exists. But not if you really work with the deep layers of the body.

CM: That is a very interesting point of view: these therapists are not really working with the body information, but instead with the phrasing of the question. There was something but it does not fully surface and they direct negative feelings into a certain thought system that they predetermine by the type of questions they ask.

GB: Yes. And that is why I do not work with questions. Instead I create the opportunity for memories to rise into the consciousness, but I never force it. And the clients will also understand. What I call 'heavenly' qualities like insight and understanding can be experienced because the emotional cycle has been completed. In the case of false memory syndrom I think the therapist has not worked correctly.

CM: Thank you very much for this exciting discussion. It was extremely interesting talking to you and I hope we will meet again soon.

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